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dimitriskmoderator
Member since Mar-19-08
230 posts
Feb-25-09, 08:05 AM (PST)
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"BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivity t"
 
   LAST EDITED ON May-08-09 AT 08:05 AM (PST) by admin (admin)
 
My sister fights a breast cancer ER- since February 2008, without any chemotherapy so far. A full report up to last September is here http://www.thedcasite.com/dimitrisk_report.html. She is on DCA+supplements since April and on LDN since July. On August she did an RFA and on December she did surgery and removed the tumor and a block of axillary lymph nodes that were found positive. A new CS after surgery showed possible lung metastasis (8mm) and she was advised to start chemotherapy. My sister does not want something like that, so she did a microarray analysis and chemosensitivity test on 25ml blood sample, that showed 63cells/ml circulating malignant cells (total cost 1300 euros).
There is a long list with full results and a lot of other usefull information, but I represent here only the no chemo stuff that works for my sister at a level > 5%.

Results:
1. We notice that in culture that contains the ascorbic acid we have increase of the cascade of caspase (especially 3 and 9) and cytochrom-c by 35% .
2. We notice that in the culture that contains quercetin we have inhibition of EGF by 45% and IGF by 30%
3. We notice that in culture that contains the c-statin we have increase of the cascade of caspase (especially 3 and 9) and cytochrom-c by 35%.
4. We notice that in culture that contains artesunate , there is inhibition of redox reaction and increase of intracellular free radicals , there is increase of cytochrome c (apoptosis) by 60% and the inhibition rate of VEGF is 40%, of FGF is 35% and of PDGF is 35%.
5. We notice that in culture that contains the superoxide dismutase we have increase of the cascade of caspase (especially 3 and 9) and cytochrom-c by 40% and the viability of the culture reduced by 35%.
6. We notice that in culture that contains the dichloroacetate (DCA) we have increase of the cascade of caspase (especially 3 and 9) and cytochrom-c by 35% .
7. We notice that in culture that contains the paw-paw we have increase of the cascade of caspase (especially 3 and 9) and cytochrom-c by 20%

DCA works, but is not as effective as artesunate. However, there is some difference between artemissinin and artesunate, and I donít know if it would be better to put her in both ones. Also, I donít know the right dose. I have read that a regular dose for artemissinin is 1000-1500 mg, but I couldnít find anything about artesunate. I bought two bottles of artesunate from www.hepalin.com (it is quite expensive) and I have a lot of artemissinin form Doctorís Best: http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=7592 that is much cheaper. Iíve also read that she has to take it in the afternoon at least 3 hours after last meal.

I have also ordered all other stuff that seems effective from iherb, axcept vitamin C (ascorbic acid). I have learnt from here that only IV megadose C works, and it has to be taken under doctorís supervision.

c-statin: http://organicpharmacy.org/products/VascuStatin

(Note about previous link:
NOTE: Skincareland seems to be a fraud and I don't want anyone to get fooled like me. They have charged my credit card, but my order has never arrived. I have sent them several emails, but they have never replied)

for superoxide dismutase (SOD) I ordered two brands:
Source Naturals, S.O.D., 2000 Units, 90 Tablets and
Life Extension, SODzyme with GliSODin & Wolfberry, 90 Veggie Caps
What do you think is the best one?

Finally, I would like to apologize for the long post, but we are trying to set up a protocol with all these sumplements, and we desperately need your advice. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Dimitris


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BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivity t [View All], dimitriskmoderator, 08:05 AM, Feb-25-09, (0)  
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rtshinn
Member since Mar-7-07
131 posts
Feb-25-09, 02:30 PM (PST)
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1. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #0
 
   Very interesting.

May I ask:
1. Is your sister's BC receptor positive, triple neagtive, or?

2. Who did the microarray?


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dimitriskmoderator
Member since Mar-19-08
230 posts
Feb-25-09, 03:29 PM (PST)
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2. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #1
 
   1.Yes. No ER receptors.
2.RGCC http://rgcc-genlab.com/html/news.html (its location is at northern Greece).


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Sandramoderator
Member since Feb-27-07
854 posts
Feb-25-09, 07:01 PM (PST)
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3. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #0
 
Great post Dimitrisk! I'm really glad you had this done.

From what I've been reading, Artemisinin may (like DCA) also inhibit its own metabolism over time - something about the digestive tract. Anyway, I'm trying a week of DCA and then a week of Artemisinin, at least for now until I learn anything to the contrary. The Quercetin may act against Artemisinin (one is an antioxidant, and one causes free radicals). You may need to experiment to see if they work better together or not.

Best to you and your sis!
Sandra


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dimitriskmoderator
Member since Mar-19-08
230 posts
Feb-26-09, 11:09 AM (PST)
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4. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #3
 
   RGCC emailed me today that they can test more supplements with the same culture. So, I am thinking about asking them to do some combinations. Art+DCA, ART+Paw, ART+Paw+DCA, and see if they are more or less effective when combined together. Paw-paw is good stuff, since it targets malignant cells that are unharmed even by regular chemotherapy, so we have to stick it somewhere. (see below ***)
I'll be waiting for your suggestion before sending a new list for testing.

Regarding quercetin, what if she takes it early in the morning, 12 hours before Art?

As I understand, you take 7 days DCA and then 7 days Art. What I was thinking is taking 4 days DCA at 20mg/Kg and then 4 days Art+Paw.
But how much Art and in what form? Artesunate, Artemether or Artemissinin? Do you think that they are all the same?
Any suggestion regarding dosing? I think that taking 1000-1500 mg Art once per day, 3 hours after meal and 1 hour before next meal would be OK.

I have to mention that RGCC report also includes a chemofit for all known chemos in the market (+thalomide) and at the end proposes a chemotherapeutic schema that we could follow in case my sister decides to do chemo. In this schema Avastin is also included as auxiliary drug (since to high expression of Angiogenesis factors). I am thinking that she could start Avastin, even without doing any chemo.

Finally, Sandra, I would like to thank you a lot for your reply, and my best wishes to you too.


***
http://alternativecancer.us/pawpaw.htm
"Paw Paw extract contains (among other active ingredients) acetogenins which modulate the production of ATP** in mitochondria of cancer cells. This reduces the growth of blood vessels that nourish cancer cells. It also inhibits the growth of MDR (multiple drug resistance) cells. No other alternative or conventional cancer treatment (except treatments from trees similar to Paw Paw) has shown any effectiveness against MDR cells."

According to RGCC analysis, my sisterís neoplasm expresses MDR1 in high degree, and they suggest verapamil + ketoconazole for reversing chemoresistance.


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Sandramoderator
Member since Feb-27-07
854 posts
Feb-26-09, 09:43 PM (PST)
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5. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #4
 
From what I've read, the strength of artemisinin can vary greatly! I've never heard of dosing at 1000-1500 mgs. May I ask where you read of this? I'm using 1 capsule, twice a day of Super Artemisinin (180mg artemisinin, 20mg leaf oil). I'm thinking of also getting artesunate (oral version) because it has a longer half-life. I'm still reading a lot about artemisinin stuff though.

I'd be curious to test Paw-Paw with DCA. I've never been quite sure if it acts with or against DCA. Also, I wonder about DCA with Artemisinin.

Hmm... I think C-statin, SOD and Quercetin are all anti-oxidants, so I'm really uncertain whether or not any of them would work well with either DCA or Artemisinin.

Have you read of I-3-C? Wonder what results you'd get with that.
http://www.thedcasite.com/Resistance/Resistance.html#I3C


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Sandramoderator
Member since Feb-27-07
854 posts
Feb-26-09, 09:48 PM (PST)
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6. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #5
 
Also - I wonder about testing DCA with R+lipoic acid. There has been a lot of discussion on whether or not it acts as an anti-oxidant against DCA. The rats studies showed double the tumor shrinkage, but no one has tested it in humans.


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dimitriskmoderator
Member since Mar-19-08
230 posts
Feb-26-09, 11:31 PM (PST)
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7. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #5
 
   >From what I've read, the strength of artemisinin can vary
>greatly! I've never heard of dosing at 1000-1500 mgs. May
>I ask where you read of this?

http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/cancer1/altthrpy.htm#Artemisinin
"Therapeutic levels (dosages) for those with active cancers can be 1,000 mgs per day, divided into 4 parts), while some physicians recommend 1,600mg per day based upon a 100 pound female."

However, Dee's protocol (designed by Dr Singh) is much lighter http://www.ldn4cancer.com/files/LDN-AP_protocol.html
Dr Singh had also suggested 2-8 capsules of butyrate acid (600mg each one). And something more from Dr Singh:
"Please calculate the dose based on Artemether content, Artemether 1 mg/kg/day for eight weeks.
The content of Artemisinin and Artesunate do not matter from toxicity point of view. That means both of these are very safe"
So, my question is, why taking so little and with interruptions?

> I'm using 1 capsule, twice a
>day of Super Artemisinin (180mg artemisinin, 20mg leaf oil).
> I'm thinking of also getting artesunate (oral version)
>because it has a longer half-life. I'm still reading a lot
>about artemisinin stuff though.

Taking it 2 times per day makes it a little more difficult, since you need 4-5 hours without food each time. I wonder if it is better than a bigger one time dose.
I've also found this, but it is for rrp that I don't know how much is related with our cases:
http://www.rrpwebsite.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/category.display/category_ID/348/
"Dosing at about 7 mg/kg a day of body weight for the artemisinin from Holley and about 4 mg/kg a day for the artesunate from Hepalin/Wellcare seemed to work without any side-effects for this writer. "


>
>I'd be curious to test Paw-Paw with DCA. I've never been
>quite sure if it acts with or against DCA. Also, I wonder
>about DCA with Artemisinin.

I would ask to test these combinations. I am curious too.


>
>Hmm... I think C-statin, SOD and Quercetin are all
>anti-oxidants, so I'm really uncertain whether or not any of
>them would work well with either DCA or Artemisinin.

C-statin is considered the best antiangiogenesis sumplement. I think it is a must for my sister. I might check this in combination with art and dca to see if it improves things or not.


>Have you read of I-3-C? Wonder what results you'd get with
>that.

It was tested, but it didn't do that much:
"We notice that in the culture that contains indol-3-carbinol we have inhibition of VEGF by less than 5%, of FGF by 5%, and PDGF by 5%"
My sister takes already this "Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw" and she would keep taking it.

They have already tested 42 sumplements. I would send a new list tomorrow. Resulta in a week. So stay tuned


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dimitriskmoderator
Member since Mar-19-08
230 posts
Mar-13-09, 12:54 PM (PST)
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10. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #7
 
   Combination results:

Supplement combination added at the same time in culture:
A B INTERACTION
DCA Quercetin synergic
DCA C-statin synergic
DCA Paw-paw independent
DCA Lipoic acid independent
Paw-paw Artesunate independent
Paw-paw Quercetin independent
Artesunate Butyric acid synergic
Artesunate Artemisinin and artemether antagonist

Supplement combination added with time sequense:
A (0 hours) Β (24 hours) INTERACTION
DCA Ascorbic acid synergic
DCA SOD independent
DCA Artesunate independent
DCA Artemisinin independent
DCA Artemether independent
c-statin Artemisinin independent
c-statin Artesunate independent
c-statin artesunate+butyric independent
Quercetin Artemisinin independent
Quercetin Artesunate independent
Quercetin artesunate+butyric independent
SOD Artemisinine independent
SOD Artesunate independent
SOD artesunate+butyric independent
Paw-paw C-statin antagonist

As I am reading on lab document, supplements have been evaluated as:
1. synergic, 2. anastaltic 3. antagonist 4. toxic 5. indepedent
I have sent email to Dr. Papasotiriou asking for more explanation on these terms.


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dimitriskmoderator
Member since Mar-19-08
230 posts
Mar-27-09, 10:29 PM (PST)
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22. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #5
 
   It is not clear to me that antioxidants inhibit action of chemotherapy, except in a few cases. From this point of view, it is more likely DCA to be synergic with antioxidants and quercetin.

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/5/3/196.pdf
Antioxidants and Cancer III: Quercetin
Davis W. Lamson, MS, ND, and Matthew S. Brignall, ND

Conclusion
In vitro research has shown quercetin
to have a number of separate and independent
mechanisms of anti-tumor action. Preliminary
animal and human studies have confirmed that
quercetin does indeed have therapeutic activity
in at least some cancer situations. Quercetin
has not shown any interference with chemotherapeutic
agents to the extent to which it
has been studied. Further research will be required
to outline the types of malignancy most
likely to benefit from this relatively non-toxic
therapy. Presently, the oral use of quercetin
appears safe and possibly useful in cancer patients.


http://theherbs.info/BobK/article1.html
Detailed Study of Anti-Oxidants and Chemotherapy and Radiation

Conclusion
Frequently, the effects of using antioxidants concurrent with chemotherapy and radiation are synergistic. Except for three specific interactions outlined above (flavonoids with tamoxifen, NAC with doxorubicin, and beta-carotene with 5-fluorouracil), there is no evidence to date showing that natural antioxidants interfere with conventional cancer therapeutics in vivo. Studies have shown patients treated with antioxidants, with or without chemotherapy and radiation, have many benefits. Patients have been noted to tolerate standard treatment better, experience less weight loss, have a better quality of life, and most importantly, live longer than patients receiving no supplements. It is time to research the role of these agents in conventional oncologic treatment, rather than dismiss them as a class based on theoretical concerns.


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oracle
Member since Mar-17-07
190 posts
Mar-27-09, 03:18 AM (PST)
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17. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemo sensitiv"
In response to message #3
 
I read the post but find some of it disturbing due to what is not in the analysis.

For instance is there any evidence pertaining to p53 activity and calcium blockers an active feeding mechanism for a cancer cell. Also the alkaline factors of DCA are missing.

It's a great report but I have seen Liens Lymphoma completely irradiated for the past year and a half. I have seen her go into remission three times and after we stopped chemo.

Please see post Topic #137

We had great results but never been in remission until we stopped using to many things but its a crap shoot at times and you can only go with what works for you. Lien destroyed bone, liver and lymphatic cancers but the lungs keep coming back.

I wonder if this is the same guy who was banned and by this site for promoting this item. Hi is this Steve and is this one of your stories? I stopped Q when I found it did not interact well with DCA - Q like C and E you have to pick your poison and hope for the best.

Me I am wary of anything that competes with DCA and its not a definite cure.
We will drown ourselves in Icelandic fish oil again and do things that improve DCA - lung cancer - DCA and Cisplatin have amazing results for Lien and gave us remission in 6 chemos!

sorry top be a bad apple its just what I have experienced of the past three years here and with a person hacking this site and his Quecertin website that I went along with and it jsut about killed my wife after 3 months of it.

Its just us so who the hell knows for sure. All the best of Luck and god it would be great if it had worked for Lien as well.

God Bless us All

O

Oracle


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Sandramoderator
Member since Feb-27-07
854 posts
Mar-27-09, 11:17 PM (PST)
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23. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemo sensitiv"
In response to message #17
 
Oracle,

I'm curious - was Lien using DCA during the three months of vitamin C and quercetin?

What did her tumor markers do during the time she took vitamin C and quercetin?

I'm only asking because maybe what she was actually experiencing was Herxheimer Reaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herxheimer_reaction

Thanks,
Sandra


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oracle
Member since Mar-17-07
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Feb-27-09, 10:02 PM (PST)
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8. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #0
 
HI - I am not sure what all this means? What is your question - it seem more like a statement that your saying DCA is not as good as some other product ?

I do know there are many people other there just trying to make it through and if you find something better for your survival GO For It! don't as us for permission we love you and want our fellow brothers and sisters to make it ! We are all Family in the beginning and in the end and its looks like you found something helpful.

One thing to note is there are other factors that you cannot get from a chemofit:

1. It takes about 3 weeks for DCA to start doing its real thing that includes stimulating the P53 gene and seeing its impact on tumor growth. DCA is a calcium blocker/inhibitor that prevents tumor growth by blocking that food line.

2. DCA has an alakalizing effect on the body over time by removing the acidic conditions around the cells. This then increases the signaling process and opens the door for apoptosis.

3. DCA with the proper protocols is delivering full blown remissions with the black tea.

1 and 2 require time that a chemo fit will not deliver so I would take some of this into consideration when making treatment decisions.

God Bless

O

Oracle


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dimitriskmoderator
Member since Mar-19-08
230 posts
Feb-27-09, 10:52 PM (PST)
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9. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #8
 
   A chemofit helps to find out if a certain treatment has a chance. If a chemo does not work in vitro, there is no way to work in vivo. If I had a negative response in culture level, I would look for another treatment.

So, I've never said that DCA does not work. I say that DCA works, but it is not enough. I see that there are some more promissing treatments for my sister, and I squeeze my brain to find the best protocol to utilize most of them for the highest possible efficacy.


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rtshinn
Member since Mar-7-07
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Mar-13-09, 01:49 PM (PST)
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11. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #9
 
   Thanks for the information!
I'm very interested in the test results as my wife has negative ER BC.


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dimitriskmoderator
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Mar-13-09, 03:55 PM (PST)
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12. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #11
 
   I repost here, in case you didn't see my previous post:

Combination results:
Supplement combination added at the same time in culture:
A B INTERACTION
DCA Quercetin synergic
DCA C-statin synergic
DCA Paw-paw independent
DCA Lipoic acid independent
Paw-paw Artesunate independent
Paw-paw Quercetin independent
Artesunate Butyric acid synergic
Artesunate Artemisinin and artemether antagonist

Supplement combination added with time sequense:
A (0 hours) Β (24 hours) INTERACTION
DCA Ascorbic acid synergic
DCA SOD independent
DCA Artesunate independent
DCA Artemisinin independent
DCA Artemether independent
c-statin Artemisinin independent
c-statin Artesunate independent
c-statin artesunate+butyric independent
Quercetin Artemisinin independent
Quercetin Artesunate independent
Quercetin artesunate+butyric independent
SOD Artemisinine independent
SOD Artesunate independent
SOD artesunate+butyric independent
Paw-paw C-statin antagonist

In lab document, supplements have been evaluated as:
1. synergic, 2. anastaltic 3. antagonist 4. toxic 5. indepedent
I have sent email to Dr. Papasotiriou asking for more explanation on these terms.


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rtshinn
Member since Mar-7-07
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Mar-13-09, 05:10 PM (PST)
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13. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #12
 
   yes, thank you.
I am interested, as you are, with the meaning of the terms
1. synergic, 2. anastaltic 3. antagonist 4. toxic 5. indepedent
So, we'll see what the Dr. says when he replies to your E-mail.


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Sandramoderator
Member since Feb-27-07
854 posts
Mar-13-09, 08:02 PM (PST)
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14. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #12
 
Very interesting, and also puzzling...

Could you also ask the doctor how the three artemisinin analogues would be antagonists??? That doesn't make sense to me...

Thank for the post! Great information!!

Sandra


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dimitriskmoderator
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Mar-13-09, 10:17 PM (PST)
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16. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #14
 
   >Could you also ask the doctor how the three artemisinin
>analogues would be antagonists??? That doesn't make sense
>to me...

It puzzles me too. I have asked for a more analytical report on these combinations, like the one with the percentages we got for each individual supplement.

At this point my sister takes 200mg artesunate+3gr butyric acid one houre before bedtime, after a 90 minute walk and 4 hours after last meal, with half glass of 1.5% milk. She also takes LDN at bedtime, and quercetin + vit.C in the morning. We are thinking about adding 12-15 mg/Kg DCA in the morning as soon as we clear out what is the meaning of "independent".

Another interesting thing in this test is that we have checked AHCC and biobran(MGN3) and both were found of no use:

1. We notice that in culture that contains AHCC we have inhibition of EGF-r by less than 5% and for IGF-r by 5% and we notice no increase of cytokine production, and there is no increase of PBMC and NK.

2. We notice that in culture that contains MGN-3 we have no inhibition of EGF-r and IGF-r and we notice no increase of cytokine production, and there is no increase of PBMC and NK.

I have seen other reports from the same lab with high scores for AHCC. I don't know why it does not work in our case.


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Sandramoderator
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Mar-13-09, 08:07 PM (PST)
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15. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #12
 
I'm also thinking that for DCA to be synergistic with vitamin C, the ascobic acid would need to be taken IV. Oral doses would not likely raise blood plasma levels high enough. I wonder if the doctor would have an opinion on that. See this thread about vitamin C as a PROOXIDANT.

http://www.thedcasite.com/dcaforum/DCForumID10/419.html


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dimitriskmoderator
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Mar-27-09, 05:27 PM (PST)
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21. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #15
 
   I have asked Dr.Papasotiriou about the concentration of each compound in his cultures, and I hope I get some answers. So far, my sister takes about 500-800 mg of vit.C as it is recommended in Dr. Singhís protocol. We donít use vit.C or quercetin as main treatment, but as a complimentary one.

Since both compounds are synergic with DCA and independent with artesunate, we are planning to add all of them in her treatment. 12-15mg DCA in the morning, c-statin and quercetin a little later, vit.C after every meal and artesunate and LDN at bedtime. She will do DCA 4 days on 3 off, and artesunate+butyric acid every day for 8 weeks.

So far, after 3 weeks only on artesunate +butyrate+ vit.C+quercetin, she had a drop in Ca-125 marker (from 118 down to 70). It might be an indication that artesunate does its job. She will repeat Ca-125 every 3 weeks to see if it keeps going down.


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dimitriskmoderator
Member since Mar-19-08
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Mar-27-09, 07:23 AM (PST)
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18. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #0
 
   Oracle hi.

I have no idea who Steve is and what his stories are about. Weíve just done the chemosensitivity test and I thought a good idea sharing with you the results.

Chemosensitivity tests are done in a tube with a culture of patientís malignant cells, so from my point of view are more reliable than biochemistry theories. Most people here take DCA without being sure if it works for them or not. If you check at Jimmyís survey, about 90 out of 140 have declared that are unsure if DCA works for them or not. Also, if you check the paper on endometrial cancer cells, DCA does not work at all for 2 cell lines out of 7. My point of view is that we are all guessing. Knowing that DCA works for our own malignant cells is really big thing.

Regarding quercetin, the only I know is that it kills tumor cells in the tube. I have no idea if it works in vivo or not. I asked the lab to test DCA-quercetin compatibility, and they found these two synergic. I donít know why it does not work in other cases, or if there was something other than quercetin that blocked activity of DCA.

I donít want people here to draw false ideas from our case. Every tumor is very unique. I strongly believe that treatment for cancer has to be designed for each patient separately, and I consider ďeducational guessingĒ very inaccurate and usually dangerous. I donít know if the answer to this personalization of treatment is this chemofit, but I think that the future is in something close to that.


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Sanzio
Member since Aug-23-07
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Mar-27-09, 10:22 AM (PST)
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19. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #18
 
   Hi,
My feeling is that this forum is becoming more and more the field of "experts" confrontations.
Who knows what happens about Dr MICHELAKIS's trials?


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dimitriskmoderator
Member since Mar-19-08
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Mar-27-09, 05:07 PM (PST)
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20. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #19
 
   Unfortunately, there are no experts in this forum. AFAIK, there are no medical doctors or biochemists posting here. Everyone does his own research and shares his opinions with the others.

Regarding Michelakis and his trials, I saw him last week in a sort interview on a Greek tv chanel http://www.skai.gr/master_avod.php?id=113445 He said the usual stuff, plus that there are some positive results but it is still too early.


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Sanzio
Member since Aug-23-07
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Mar-28-09, 09:38 AM (PST)
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24. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #20
 
   Thank you Dimitrisk


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dimitriskmoderator
Member since Mar-19-08
230 posts
Apr-03-09, 12:35 PM (PST)
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25. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #0
 
   Iíve just got all results from new sensitivity tests ordered to RGCC., and here is everything (I use the exact expressions in labís report).

Zeolite: Reduction of culture growth compared to control
Germanium: Reduction of culture growth compared to control (negative STAT and OAS)
Quercetin: Increase of caspase 3 and 9 35% and release of cytochrome c -55%
B1: same as control
B2: same as control
B6: Reduction of culture growth compared to control at high concentrations of B6.
B12: same as control
Folic acid: same as control

DCA + Zeolite: Synergic
Artesunate + Zeolite: Synergic
Artemisinine Artesunate: Independent
Artesunate + Artemeher: Antagonistic
Artesunate+ Artemisinin+ Artemether: Antagonistic
DCA + coQ10: Iindependent
DCA + B1: Independent
Ascorbic acid + quercetin: Synergic
Ascorbic acid + Quercetin + SOD: Synergic
DCA + Ascorbic acid + Quercetin + SOD: Synergic

My first conclusion is that quercetin works very well in our case, and it is also synergic with DCA, SOD and Vitamin C.

The second important conclusion is that artemether does not work well with artemissinin or artesunate, so we have to take it separately. Artesunate and artemissinin can be taken together without problem. I am going to inform Dr. Singh about those results.

Another important thing in this test is that vitamin B complex (B!,B2,B6.B12,Folic Acid) that is best used against peripheral neuropathy do not feed our tumor, so there is no problem taking them in higher doses. I am referring to this discussion http://www.thedcasite.com/dcaforum/DCForumID10/355.html where Vitaminboss had expressed his skepticism regarding vit.B supplementation, and claimed that B1, B6 and folic acid feed cancer. This is not true in our case, and as a matter of fact B6 has a slight positive effect.

Finally, I have to repeat that these results are related to my sisterís cancer and might not much with other cases.


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dimitriskmoderator
Member since Mar-19-08
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Apr-15-09, 08:54 PM (PST)
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26. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #25
 
   Report:

My sister has completed 7 weeks on artesunate + DCA + quercetin + SOD + vit.C + omega 3 + zeolite + LDN + a few more supplements. Actually, she takes everything that works for her (according to chemofit) and is compatible with other supplements.

Regarding artesunate, she follows Dr. Singh's protocol: She takes every night 200mg Artesunate + 5 caps of butyrate with a glass of 1.5% fat milk, with empty stomach, after of 90 minute walk, one hour before bed time.

Since she started this treatment she had 3 blood tests, and here are some results:
Date Ca125 LDH WBC CRP
18-02:_118 526 5120 18.2 just before treatment
18-03:__71 618 4600 ----- 3 weeks on artesunate
14-04:__30 840 3460 42.8 7 weeks on art+DCA+Ö

There was also a reduction in sedimentation rate from 43.0 mm/h to 5.0 mm/h

This drop of Ca125 marker is very encouraging, but I canít explain the rise of LDH and CRP. Also, I donít know why she had this drop in WBC (white blood cells). Any comments or suggestions are welcome.


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dimitriskmoderator
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Apr-29-09, 10:08 PM (PST)
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27. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #26
 
   New blood test after two weeks from the last one, and here is the updated table:
_date Ca125 Ca153 Ca199 LDH
18-02 118.2 _33.5 _31.4 _526 _before treatment
18-03 _70.9 _30.9 _22.0 _618 3 weeks on artesunate
14-04 _30.1 _31.4 _14.2 _840 4 weeks on artes.+DCA
28-04 _29.7 _42.5 _10.9 _814 2 weeks on artes.+artem.

Iron is low (30 and has to be > 37) and Ferritin is almost normal (22 and has to be in the range 10-160). I asked Dr.Singh about floradix, but he told me not to take since iron supplements enhance tumor growth.

White blood cells are normal again (6020) but the bad thing is the rise of Ca153. My sister is going to do new blood test in 3 weeks. Treatment will change a bit: 200mg artesunate + 200mg artemisin and maybe DCA.


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aurora
Member since Feb-22-10
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Mar-23-10, 07:14 AM (PST)
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31. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #25
 
   Thank you very much for sharing this test with us, Dimitrisk.

I am wondering what is Dr. Singh's opinion on the "Antagonistic" result for Artesunate + Artemisinin + Artemether. Because Artemix is thought to be the most effective compound. I hope this is due to difference between in vitro and in vivo? Did he reply?

Also I read your discussion with Vitaminboss about effect of Vitamin B family, it is very informative.

Of course I read your claim that the chemofit test should be considered to only refer to your sister's case.

Best wishes to you and your sister!

Rgs, Aurora


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dimitriskmoderator
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Mar-23-10, 07:27 AM (PST)
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32. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #31
 
   I had sent those results to Dr. Singh, but he didn't comment. He had just suggested that taking only artesunate would be ok.

In Maria's last RGCC test, I asked Dr. Papasotiriou to check for us Artesunate and Artemix as two different subastances. Here is the results:

27. We notice that in culture that contains artesunate , there is inhibition of redox reaction and increase of intracellular free radicals , there is increase of cytochrome c (apoptosis) by 45% and the inhibition rate of VEGF is 35%, of FGF is 30% and of PDGF is 20%.

28. We notice that in culture that contains artemisinine , there is inhibition of redox reaction and increase of intracellular free radicals , there is increase of cytochrome c (apoptosis) by 30% and the inhibition rate of VEGF is 20%, of FGF is 20% and of PDGF is 15%.

29. We notice that in culture that contains artemether , there is inhibition of redox reaction and increase of intracellular free radicals , there is increase of cytochrome c (apoptosis) by 25% and the inhibition rate of VEGF is 15%, of FGF is 20% and of PDGF is 10%.

30. We notice that in culture that contains artemix , there is inhibition of redox reaction and increase of intracellular free radicals , there is increase of cytochrome c (apoptosis) by 55% and the inhibition rate of VEGF is 30%, of FGF is 25% and of PDGF is 20%.

It looks like artemix is stronger apoptotic than artesunate alone, but a little less effective in Vegfr inhibition. I don't know if this is the "antagonistic" effect noticed in our first test, but my conclusion is that artemix works better than artesunate alone. So, Maria has switched to artemix.

Another interesting thing in our last test is Shark liver oil as immune stimulator:
6. We notice that in culture that contains Shark liver oil we notice increase of cytokine production by 40%, and there is increase of PBMC by 15% and NK by 20%.

And also quercetin:
2. We notice that in culture that contains the Quercetin we have increase of the cascade of caspase (especially 3 and 9) and cytochrom-c by 30% and the viability of the culture reduced by 45%

4. We notice that in the culture that contains quercetin we have inhibition of EGF by 45% and IGF by 30%

Quercetin is really strong, but how can we be sure it is bioavailable. Unfortunately, no liposomal or injectable version is available yet.


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aurora
Member since Feb-22-10
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Mar-24-10, 01:00 PM (PST)
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33. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #32
 
   Thanks a lot for the reply, Dimitrisk.

I am biting my nail out to figure out these things,

1. The factors that make the difference between in vitro and in vivo use of artemisinin and its derivatives.

Since the end product in vivo of all the three major artemisinin derivatives are actually the same thing - Dihydroartemisinin (DHA), it makes less sense to me that we have an Antagonistic result when testing the compound in vitro. But then there must be something that makes the difference. What is that?

One instinct guess is the dosage, Dr. Singh and Lai used 12microM and got a fairly promising result, but it is said to be not possible to load DHA into human body with such high concentration.

Another interesting thing is the in vivo half-time, although artesunate has the shortest half-time (10 mins oral), which implies it should not stay long in the body especially in brain, but one trial shows that with one intravenous of artesunate, they measured accumulation of DHA in CSF. This should explain why artesunate can be used to cure cerebral malaria。

And, artesunate's half-time is 10 mins when taken orally, that shoulde due to the low PH culture in stomach, when aresunate is put in culture where PH is around 7, its half-time goes up to 7 hrs.

Finally, scientists have found the CYP450 enzymes that work with aremisinin (helps to convert ART to DHA, implies faster half-time), they are CYP2B6,CYP2a6 and CYP3a4(less important). BTW, Dr. Lai think LDN is water solvable, thus should not interfere with CYP450.

I just list what I have found, maybe somebody can tell us something more from them.

2. Dosage

-Dr. Singh and Lai suggests 1mg/kg/day on artemether.
-They both said ART and artemisinin are very safe.
-Study shows the toxicity of artemether is not (only?) depends on the dosage, but depends on the length of period it is given.
-Monkey has been given artemether for 292mg/kg for 1-3 months without toxicity shown, equal to 20g/day for a 70kg male.
-Some clinical trail tried 500mg/day artesunate on brain tumor patients for 2 month with some success.
-Some doctors (source unknown) used 1600mg/day Artemisinin to treat active cancer.

What can we conclude for the dosage then?

3. Time to take art and supplements

-With empty stomach, because art may combine iron in the food thus lose bio-activity.
-Butyric Acid will enhance the effectiveness (IN VITRO)
-In general less antioxidants should be taken when using art
-The reason to suggest taking some Vc and Ve around breakfast and lunch time is, try to absorb as much iron as we can from vegetables. (implies a vegan diet). My guess is iron in red meal or egg are so easy to be absorbed that will contribute more to division of cancer cell. But we have to keep iron level at a certain stage otherwise Art won't work properly, so vegan diet can be a break even. This also implies not to take iron supplements (without a good reason), since you never know if you are making them your trojan agent for art or feeding the tumor.

4. way to take art.

IV, oral or topical.

Oral administration is the easiest way for us, but then it also has shorter half-time because of PH level in stomach and enzymes in our digest system.

Some study shows that topical art product has the advantage of large dosage with little side effect concern, or less dosage but same effectiveness as oral, longer effective duration (up to 7 days!), thus appears to be more effective. But this is something old (stopped several years ago), and something too new (some pharmacy factories are developing the tech to let art more easily pass human skin, but it will take years before we can see it from market)

So, the question might be, what is the theory of this tech? Can we make it at home and try it out right away?

5. The concern of detoxification of liver

Although studies are more focus on neuronal toxicities, liver function should always be monitored during art intake. Some suggests Gerson enema every morning.


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oracle
Member since Mar-17-07
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May-03-09, 07:22 PM (PST)
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28. "RE: BC report. A microarray analysis and chemosensitivi"
In response to message #0
 
Folks I found a local head of - head and neck oncology named Dr. West for Swedish Medical Center here in Seattle washington. He has been answering my questions for years! he even posted the dca site on his site two years ago when I told him about it. He read and said it was as promising a treatment as any he see's out there.

Here are his comments on this artemisinin:

http://cancergrace.org/alternative-medicine/2008/10/24/controversy-around-chinese-herbal-medicine-wormwood-artemisinin/

Seattle times states local scientists give it the thumbs up for fighting cancer.

God Bless
Joe

Oracle


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