Regarding quercetin, what if she takes it early in the morning, 12 hours before Art?

As I understand, you take 7 days DCA and then 7 days Art. What I was thinking is taking 4 days DCA at 20mg/Kg and then 4 days Art+Paw.
But how much Art and in what form? Artesunate, Artemether or Artemissinin? Do you think that they are all the same?
Any suggestion regarding dosing? I think that taking 1000-1500 mg Art once per day, 3 hours after meal and 1 hour before next meal would be OK.

I have to mention that RGCC report also includes a chemofit for all known chemos in the market (+thalomide) and at the end proposes a chemotherapeutic schema that we could follow in case my sister decides to do chemo. In this schema Avastin is also included as auxiliary drug (since to high expression of Angiogenesis factors). I am thinking that she could start Avastin, even without doing any chemo.

Finally, Sandra, I would like to thank you a lot for your reply, and my best wishes to you too.

***
http://alternativecancer.us/pawpaw.htm
"Paw Paw extract contains (among other active ingredients) acetogenins which modulate the production of ATP** in mitochondria of cancer cells. This reduces the growth of blood vessels that nourish cancer cells. It also inhibits the growth of MDR (multiple drug resistance) cells. No other alternative or conventional cancer treatment (except treatments from trees similar to Paw Paw) has shown any effectiveness against MDR cells."

According to RGCC analysis, my sister’s neoplasm expresses MDR1 in high degree, and they suggest verapamil + ketoconazole for reversing chemoresistance.

I'd be curious to test Paw-Paw with DCA. I've never been quite sure if it acts with or against DCA. Also, I wonder about DCA with Artemisinin.

Hmm... I think C-statin, SOD and Quercetin are all anti-oxidants, so I'm really uncertain whether or not any of them would work well with either DCA or Artemisinin.

Have you read of I-3-C? Wonder what results you'd get with that.
http://www.thedcasite.com/Resistance/Resistance.html#I3C

http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/cancer1/altthrpy.htm#Artemisinin
"Therapeutic levels (dosages) for those with active cancers can be 1,000 mgs per day, divided into 4 parts), while some physicians recommend 1,600mg per day based upon a 100 pound female."

However, Dee's protocol (designed by Dr Singh) is much lighter http://www.ldn4cancer.com/files/LDN-AP_protocol.html
Dr Singh had also suggested 2-8 capsules of butyrate acid (600mg each one). And something more from Dr Singh:
"Please calculate the dose based on Artemether content, Artemether 1 mg/kg/day for eight weeks.
The content of Artemisinin and Artesunate do not matter from toxicity point of view. That means both of these are very safe"
So, my question is, why taking so little and with interruptions?

> I'm using 1 capsule, twice a
>day of Super Artemisinin (180mg artemisinin, 20mg leaf oil).
> I'm thinking of also getting artesunate (oral version)
>because it has a longer half-life. I'm still reading a lot
>about artemisinin stuff though.

Taking it 2 times per day makes it a little more difficult, since you need 4-5 hours without food each time. I wonder if it is better than a bigger one time dose.
I've also found this, but it is for rrp that I don't know how much is related with our cases:
http://www.rrpwebsite.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/category.display/category_ID/348/
"Dosing at about 7 mg/kg a day of body weight for the artemisinin from Holley and about 4 mg/kg a day for the artesunate from Hepalin/Wellcare seemed to work without any side-effects for this writer. "

>
>I'd be curious to test Paw-Paw with DCA. I've never been
>quite sure if it acts with or against DCA. Also, I wonder
>about DCA with Artemisinin.

I would ask to test these combinations. I am curious too.

>
>Hmm... I think C-statin, SOD and Quercetin are all
>anti-oxidants, so I'm really uncertain whether or not any of
>them would work well with either DCA or Artemisinin.

C-statin is considered the best antiangiogenesis sumplement. I think it is a must for my sister. I might check this in combination with art and dca to see if it improves things or not.

>Have you read of I-3-C? Wonder what results you'd get with
>that.

It was tested, but it didn't do that much:
"We notice that in the culture that contains indol-3-carbinol we have inhibition of VEGF by less than 5%, of FGF by 5%, and PDGF by 5%"
My sister takes already this "Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw" and she would keep taking it.

They have already tested 42 sumplements. I would send a new list tomorrow. Resulta in a week. So stay tuned

Supplement combination added at the same time in culture:
A B INTERACTION
DCA Quercetin synergic
DCA C-statin synergic
DCA Paw-paw independent
DCA Lipoic acid independent
Paw-paw Artesunate independent
Paw-paw Quercetin independent
Artesunate Butyric acid synergic
Artesunate Artemisinin and artemether antagonist

Supplement combination added with time sequense:
A (0 hours) Β (24 hours) INTERACTION
DCA Ascorbic acid synergic
DCA SOD independent
DCA Artesunate independent
DCA Artemisinin independent
DCA Artemether independent
c-statin Artemisinin independent
c-statin Artesunate independent
c-statin artesunate+butyric independent
Quercetin Artemisinin independent
Quercetin Artesunate independent
Quercetin artesunate+butyric independent
SOD Artemisinine independent
SOD Artesunate independent
SOD artesunate+butyric independent
Paw-paw C-statin antagonist

As I am reading on lab document, supplements have been evaluated as:
1. synergic, 2. anastaltic 3. antagonist 4. toxic 5. indepedent
I have sent email to Dr. Papasotiriou asking for more explanation on these terms.

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/5/3/196.pdf
Antioxidants and Cancer III: Quercetin
Davis W. Lamson, MS, ND, and Matthew S. Brignall, ND

Conclusion
In vitro research has shown quercetin
to have a number of separate and independent
mechanisms of anti-tumor action. Preliminary
animal and human studies have confirmed that
quercetin does indeed have therapeutic activity
in at least some cancer situations. Quercetin
has not shown any interference with chemotherapeutic
agents to the extent to which it
has been studied. Further research will be required
to outline the types of malignancy most
likely to benefit from this relatively non-toxic
therapy. Presently, the oral use of quercetin
appears safe and possibly useful in cancer patients.

http://theherbs.info/BobK/article1.html
Detailed Study of Anti-Oxidants and Chemotherapy and Radiation

Conclusion
Frequently, the effects of using antioxidants concurrent with chemotherapy and radiation are synergistic. Except for three specific interactions outlined above (flavonoids with tamoxifen, NAC with doxorubicin, and beta-carotene with 5-fluorouracil), there is no evidence to date showing that natural antioxidants interfere with conventional cancer therapeutics in vivo. Studies have shown patients treated with antioxidants, with or without chemotherapy and radiation, have many benefits. Patients have been noted to tolerate standard treatment better, experience less weight loss, have a better quality of life, and most importantly, live longer than patients receiving no supplements. It is time to research the role of these agents in conventional oncologic treatment, rather than dismiss them as a class based on theoretical concerns.

For instance is there any evidence pertaining to p53 activity and calcium blockers an active feeding mechanism for a cancer cell. Also the alkaline factors of DCA are missing.

It's a great report but I have seen Liens Lymphoma completely irradiated for the past year and a half. I have seen her go into remission three times and after we stopped chemo.

Please see post Topic #137

We had great results but never been in remission until we stopped using to many things but its a crap shoot at times and you can only go with what works for you. Lien destroyed bone, liver and lymphatic cancers but the lungs keep coming back.

I wonder if this is the same guy who was banned and by this site for promoting this item. Hi is this Steve and is this one of your stories? I stopped Q when I found it did not interact well with DCA - Q like C and E you have to pick your poison and hope for the best.

Me I am wary of anything that competes with DCA and its not a definite cure.
We will drown ourselves in Icelandic fish oil again and do things that improve DCA - lung cancer - DCA and Cisplatin have amazing results for Lien and gave us remission in 6 chemos!

sorry top be a bad apple its just what I have experienced of the past three years here and with a person hacking this site and his Quecertin website that I went along with and it jsut about killed my wife after 3 months of it.

Its just us so who the hell knows for sure. All the best of Luck and god it would be great if it had worked for Lien as well.

God Bless us All

O

I'm curious - was Lien using DCA during the three months of vitamin C and quercetin?

What did her tumor markers do during the time she took vitamin C and quercetin?

I'm only asking because maybe what she was actually experiencing was Herxheimer Reaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herxheimer_reaction

Thanks,
Sandra

So, I've never said that DCA does not work. I say that DCA works, but it is not enough. I see that there are some more promissing treatments for my sister, and I squeeze my brain to find the best protocol to utilize most of them for the highest possible efficacy.

Combination results:
Supplement combination added at the same time in culture:
A B INTERACTION
DCA Quercetin synergic
DCA C-statin synergic
DCA Paw-paw independent
DCA Lipoic acid independent
Paw-paw Artesunate independent
Paw-paw Quercetin independent
Artesunate Butyric acid synergic
Artesunate Artemisinin and artemether antagonist

Supplement combination added with time sequense:
A (0 hours) Β (24 hours) INTERACTION
DCA Ascorbic acid synergic
DCA SOD independent
DCA Artesunate independent
DCA Artemisinin independent
DCA Artemether independent
c-statin Artemisinin independent
c-statin Artesunate independent
c-statin artesunate+butyric independent
Quercetin Artemisinin independent
Quercetin Artesunate independent
Quercetin artesunate+butyric independent
SOD Artemisinine independent
SOD Artesunate independent
SOD artesunate+butyric independent
Paw-paw C-statin antagonist

In lab document, supplements have been evaluated as:
1. synergic, 2. anastaltic 3. antagonist 4. toxic 5. indepedent
I have sent email to Dr. Papasotiriou asking for more explanation on these terms.

Could you also ask the doctor how the three artemisinin analogues would be antagonists??? That doesn't make sense to me...

Thank for the post! Great information!!

Sandra

It puzzles me too. I have asked for a more analytical report on these combinations, like the one with the percentages we got for each individual supplement.

At this point my sister takes 200mg artesunate+3gr butyric acid one houre before bedtime, after a 90 minute walk and 4 hours after last meal, with half glass of 1.5% milk. She also takes LDN at bedtime, and quercetin + vit.C in the morning. We are thinking about adding 12-15 mg/Kg DCA in the morning as soon as we clear out what is the meaning of "independent".

Another interesting thing in this test is that we have checked AHCC and biobran(MGN3) and both were found of no use:

1. We notice that in culture that contains AHCC we have inhibition of EGF-r by less than 5% and for IGF-r by 5% and we notice no increase of cytokine production, and there is no increase of PBMC and NK.

2. We notice that in culture that contains MGN-3 we have no inhibition of EGF-r and IGF-r and we notice no increase of cytokine production, and there is no increase of PBMC and NK.

I have seen other reports from the same lab with high scores for AHCC. I don't know why it does not work in our case.

http://www.thedcasite.com/dcaforum/DCForumID10/419.html

Since both compounds are synergic with DCA and independent with artesunate, we are planning to add all of them in her treatment. 12-15mg DCA in the morning, c-statin and quercetin a little later, vit.C after every meal and artesunate and LDN at bedtime. She will do DCA 4 days on 3 off, and artesunate+butyric acid every day for 8 weeks.

So far, after 3 weeks only on artesunate +butyrate+ vit.C+quercetin, she had a drop in Ca-125 marker (from 118 down to 70). It might be an indication that artesunate does its job. She will repeat Ca-125 every 3 weeks to see if it keeps going down.

Regarding Michelakis and his trials, I saw him last week in a sort interview on a Greek tv chanel http://www.skai.gr/master_avod.php?id=113445 He said the usual stuff, plus that there are some positive results but it is still too early.

My sister has completed 7 weeks on artesunate + DCA + quercetin + SOD + vit.C + omega 3 + zeolite + LDN + a few more supplements. Actually, she takes everything that works for her (according to chemofit) and is compatible with other supplements.

Regarding artesunate, she follows Dr. Singh's protocol: She takes every night 200mg Artesunate + 5 caps of butyrate with a glass of 1.5% fat milk, with empty stomach, after of 90 minute walk, one hour before bed time.

Since she started this treatment she had 3 blood tests, and here are some results:
Date Ca125 LDH WBC CRP
18-02:_118 526 5120 18.2 just before treatment
18-03:__71 618 4600 ----- 3 weeks on artesunate
14-04:__30 840 3460 42.8 7 weeks on art+DCA+…

There was also a reduction in sedimentation rate from 43.0 mm/h to 5.0 mm/h

This drop of Ca125 marker is very encouraging, but I can’t explain the rise of LDH and CRP. Also, I don’t know why she had this drop in WBC (white blood cells). Any comments or suggestions are welcome.

Iron is low (30 and has to be > 37) and Ferritin is almost normal (22 and has to be in the range 10-160). I asked Dr.Singh about floradix, but he told me not to take since iron supplements enhance tumor growth.

White blood cells are normal again (6020) but the bad thing is the rise of Ca153. My sister is going to do new blood test in 3 weeks. Treatment will change a bit: 200mg artesunate + 200mg artemisin and maybe DCA.

I am wondering what is Dr. Singh's opinion on the "Antagonistic" result for Artesunate + Artemisinin + Artemether. Because Artemix is thought to be the most effective compound. I hope this is due to difference between in vitro and in vivo? Did he reply?

Also I read your discussion with Vitaminboss about effect of Vitamin B family, it is very informative.

Of course I read your claim that the chemofit test should be considered to only refer to your sister's case.

Best wishes to you and your sister!

Rgs, Aurora

In Maria's last RGCC test, I asked Dr. Papasotiriou to check for us Artesunate and Artemix as two different subastances. Here is the results:

27. We notice that in culture that contains artesunate , there is inhibition of redox reaction and increase of intracellular free radicals , there is increase of cytochrome c (apoptosis) by 45% and the inhibition rate of VEGF is 35%, of FGF is 30% and of PDGF is 20%.

28. We notice that in culture that contains artemisinine , there is inhibition of redox reaction and increase of intracellular free radicals , there is increase of cytochrome c (apoptosis) by 30% and the inhibition rate of VEGF is 20%, of FGF is 20% and of PDGF is 15%.

29. We notice that in culture that contains artemether , there is inhibition of redox reaction and increase of intracellular free radicals , there is increase of cytochrome c (apoptosis) by 25% and the inhibition rate of VEGF is 15%, of FGF is 20% and of PDGF is 10%.

30. We notice that in culture that contains artemix , there is inhibition of redox reaction and increase of intracellular free radicals , there is increase of cytochrome c (apoptosis) by 55% and the inhibition rate of VEGF is 30%, of FGF is 25% and of PDGF is 20%.

It looks like artemix is stronger apoptotic than artesunate alone, but a little less effective in Vegfr inhibition. I don't know if this is the "antagonistic" effect noticed in our first test, but my conclusion is that artemix works better than artesunate alone. So, Maria has switched to artemix.

Another interesting thing in our last test is Shark liver oil as immune stimulator:
6. We notice that in culture that contains Shark liver oil we notice increase of cytokine production by 40%, and there is increase of PBMC by 15% and NK by 20%.

And also quercetin:
2. We notice that in culture that contains the Quercetin we have increase of the cascade of caspase (especially 3 and 9) and cytochrom-c by 30% and the viability of the culture reduced by 45%

4. We notice that in the culture that contains quercetin we have inhibition of EGF by 45% and IGF by 30%

Quercetin is really strong, but how can we be sure it is bioavailable. Unfortunately, no liposomal or injectable version is available yet.

I am biting my nail out to figure out these things,

1. The factors that make the difference between in vitro and in vivo use of artemisinin and its derivatives.

Since the end product in vivo of all the three major artemisinin derivatives are actually the same thing - Dihydroartemisinin （DHA）, it makes less sense to me that we have an Antagonistic result when testing the compound in vitro. But then there must be something that makes the difference. What is that?

One instinct guess is the dosage, Dr. Singh and Lai used 12microM and got a fairly promising result, but it is said to be not possible to load DHA into human body with such high concentration.

Another interesting thing is the in vivo half-time, although artesunate has the shortest half-time (10 mins oral), which implies it should not stay long in the body especially in brain, but one trial shows that with one intravenous of artesunate, they measured accumulation of DHA in CSF. This should explain why artesunate can be used to cure cerebral malaria。

And, artesunate's half-time is 10 mins when taken orally, that shoulde due to the low PH culture in stomach, when aresunate is put in culture where PH is around 7, its half-time goes up to 7 hrs.

Finally, scientists have found the CYP450 enzymes that work with aremisinin (helps to convert ART to DHA, implies faster half-time), they are CYP2B6,CYP2a6 and CYP3a4(less important). BTW, Dr. Lai think LDN is water solvable, thus should not interfere with CYP450.

I just list what I have found, maybe somebody can tell us something more from them.

2. Dosage

-Dr. Singh and Lai suggests 1mg/kg/day on artemether.
-They both said ART and artemisinin are very safe.
-Study shows the toxicity of artemether is not (only?) depends on the dosage, but depends on the length of period it is given.
-Monkey has been given artemether for 292mg/kg for 1-3 months without toxicity shown, equal to 20g/day for a 70kg male.
-Some clinical trail tried 500mg/day artesunate on brain tumor patients for 2 month with some success.
-Some doctors (source unknown) used 1600mg/day Artemisinin to treat active cancer.

What can we conclude for the dosage then?

3. Time to take art and supplements

-With empty stomach, because art may combine iron in the food thus lose bio-activity.
-Butyric Acid will enhance the effectiveness (IN VITRO)
-In general less antioxidants should be taken when using art
-The reason to suggest taking some Vc and Ve around breakfast and lunch time is, try to absorb as much iron as we can from vegetables. (implies a vegan diet). My guess is iron in red meal or egg are so easy to be absorbed that will contribute more to division of cancer cell. But we have to keep iron level at a certain stage otherwise Art won't work properly, so vegan diet can be a break even. This also implies not to take iron supplements (without a good reason), since you never know if you are making them your trojan agent for art or feeding the tumor.

4. way to take art.

IV, oral or topical.

Oral administration is the easiest way for us, but then it also has shorter half-time because of PH level in stomach and enzymes in our digest system.

Some study shows that topical art product has the advantage of large dosage with little side effect concern, or less dosage but same effectiveness as oral, longer effective duration (up to 7 days!), thus appears to be more effective. But this is something old (stopped several years ago), and something too new (some pharmacy factories are developing the tech to let art more easily pass human skin, but it will take years before we can see it from market)

So, the question might be, what is the theory of this tech? Can we make it at home and try it out right away?

5. The concern of detoxification of liver

Although studies are more focus on neuronal toxicities, liver function should always be monitored during art intake. Some suggests Gerson enema every morning.